or perhaps it resolved in 2 years, and they never checked for a long time, only checking right after the prayer 16 years later. Snyder ended up in hospice care with a no-resuscitation order; she was nearly blind, her hands and body were curled and she had a tube in her throat to help her breath as well as a tube in her stomach to ensure proper nourishment. Barbara had a very severe case of multiple sclerosis. Shermer: well the counterfactual what about the christian families who pray for their loved one who's dying from cancer and they just die nothing happens from the prayer that happens all the time. Also, while we have been generally optimistic that these miracle claims are not the result of deliberate fraud, one does have to consider that as a real possibility and find ways to rule it out. Given the number of miracle claims, and the bold claims of Christians throughout these videos, and the proliferation of cameras in people's pockets, there should be thousands of convincing videos of miracles. We know better now, and we often know what the minimum amount of data is to justify a particular claim. This kind of phrasing is trying to stop people from being skeptical of their claims (and only their claims). To this day.. She earned her bachelors degree from OSU. University. Eventually I found some of it, but what surprised me was the dramatic nature of some of this. successor. Sometimes we don't even get healing in this physical body in this life, but when it happens to any of us it's a reminder to all of us of God's plans for us. Craig Keener, Michael Shermer & Elijah Stephens, Case Report of gastroparesis healing: 16 years of a chronic syndrome resolved after proximal intercessory prayer, Case report of instantaneous resolution of juvenile macular degeneration blindness after proximal intercessory prayer, Study of the therapeutic effects of proximal intercessory prayer (STEPP) on auditory and visual impairments in rural Mozambique, Delia Knox healed from being paralyzed after 22 years, Sean George comes back after a heart attack, https://guides.library.stonybrook.edu/evidence-based-medicine/levels_of_evidence, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15166467/, https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/full-moon-does-not-affect-mental-health-emergency-room-study-suggests, first evidence for the accelerating universe, https://seangeorge.com.au/my-story/medical-details/, phenomenon of spontaneous recovery of heart activity, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/04/06/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-1-summary/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/10/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-2-littlewoods-law/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/24/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-3-georges-argument/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/05/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-4-evaluation-premise-1c/, https://www.patheos.com/blogs/secularoutpost/2019/06/26/the-resurrection-of-dr-sean-george-part-5-evaluation-of-premise-a4/, evidence that someone was sick at one time, evidence that they were not sick at a later time, sometime between those two points they claimed that they were prayed for (and don't always demonstrate that they actually were prayed), they used xrays to diagnose it originally, which is not the best for soft tissue. It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago, Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and The Billy Hallowell Podcast. But my skepticism didn't go away.. That's a gift from God." patient on hospice healed by Jesus. The Surfaris were a California garage band with an average age of 15 who had been successful enough playing at sock hops and house parties that they were able to acquire a manager. Prayer, in her house, probably occurs even more frequently. Scott Rae: Nabeel Qureshi, for the sake of our listeners who might not be aware of him, was one of the most, the most compelling apologists to Islam having converted to Christianity out of Islam himself. "It got to the point where she was dying. He says, he's going back to these passages about the coming of the [inaudible] and saying, "John, these are signs of the Kingdom right now." Craig Keener: Well everybody has a love story. You're an expert on the life and teachings of Paul. It completely defies what is possible by any naturalistic means. It's the same reason large careful studies aren't done -- they simply don't care enough, and are already believing, so why bother? I want to refer our listeners to your two volume series on miracles. This is the reason the specifics matter. Scott Rae: Yeah. Kamil: so he basically said, look the way we do it is that we have, let's say seven different possible explanations, six of them are naturalistic which we can disconfirm using science and then the seventh is the explanation that God did it. If that agent were doing these kinds of actions we would expect to see a bigger effect, or that agent is being capricious. Here's my comment. Subsequent medical records document repeated substantial improvement. There may be a difference between the way they look at things now vs the way they looked at it at the time of the event -- which is perfectly explainable under naturalism. He had asthma all his life. Brian: Essentially Shermer's complaint about prayer being done and nothing happening is part what you would have in any kind of controlled study because you would have the case looking at all prayer events and which ones had effects and which ones didn't, that's the basic thing they seem unable to even grasp that idea and it shows a certain unwillingness to actually try to find the truth and to rule out these actual alternatives. fall transition to the AAU will depend on the progress of the search process. So things got delayed. This is pretty silly. "It was really the miracle of the resurrection and the historical evidence for that that ended up bringing me to faith many years ago," Strobel told Pure Flix Insider and "The Billy Hallowell Podcast." In 1972, having been blind for over 12 years, the individual reportedly regained her vision instantaneously after receiving proximal-intercessory-prayer (PIP). Strobel said. There was no blinding or control group so everyone in the study, subjects and experimenters, knew that every subject was getting the treatment. She went back. Scott Rae: I love how you put that, that healing now is a foretaste of the Glory of the Kingdom. Is he thinking (a strawman of) 100% of the time? Although MS can come in milder forms, Barbara's condition deteriorated quickly. Medine was a war refugee for 18 months in her country of Congo. Her feet and fingers were suddenly straight and normal again. Wed 23 March 2022 Case Western Reserves She actually ended up being stranded in a third country for about eight months before she could get to the U.S., but the Lord did so many miracles along the way and we're grateful for this. If you took our remedy, and improved, we want to hear from you. Of course this is ludicrous, because teeth-brushing would occur twice a day, every day, so every single event would follow a teeth-brushing. READ ALSO: Columbine Survivor's Powerful Lessons After Facing Terror. From the Send Proof film they admit that they can't publish Bruce Van Natta case because the accurate measurement of the length of intestine needed to verify the result we don't have the technology yet. If the Anchor.fm widget isnt showing up above, click here to listen. It is for these sorts of problems that randomized controlled studies are developed and are necessary to distinguish effect from non-effect. Strobel went on to explain that he interviewed skeptics and believers, alike, and included their perspectives in The Case for Miracles. I know we, we were really, really praying for him. Why not? It makes it very hard to investigate these claims because you have to spend so much time trying to work out what is actually established. This pretty much summarizes the problems with this study. My oldest grandson loves to run and is always racing ahead, scampering up hills and sliding down ravines faster than the rest. conversation that I was a part of here: Bad Apologetics Ep 20 - Miracles & even MORE even NEWER Resurrection evidence where we respond to the Unbelievable? Western Reserves president has been the greatest professional privilege of my 2) A child dies from after a doctor concluded that this would be the outcome of the disease. So she basically pulls the tube out of her throat, says, Go find my parents [and] jumps out of bed.. For example, if you take the population of people who go to Rome on pilgrimage each year, you can calculate the fraction of those with diseases that will go into remission. One of the remarkable stories recounted in Lee Strobel's book "The Case for Miracles" involves a hopelessly ill woman named Barbara Snyder, who had suffered for many years with multiple sclerosis. I wear glasses. A document going through these particular medical statements with citations can be found here. And sometimes there's also a catch-22 because after so many years the medical documentation has been discarded. But because of the asthma he ended up not playing sports with the other kids. The story is that the Dr Sean George had a heart attack, a thousand chest compressions, many electric shocks, went on for an hour and half -- Keener says 5 minutes without oxygen, flat line for an hour and a half. Moreland: we asked god to give us a really good pool table just like the kind that you find in a pool hall, that isn't a cheap one that if you hit it up it shakes. This article was originally published on Pure Flix Insider. And there were a number of other people who also, who were there at the occasion, who knew him before and after, who could testify to this. Get the news that matters most delivered directly to your inbox. such profound challenges across so many fronts, I felt an obligation to answer diagnosis by the Mayo Clinic, her condition declined over the next 15 years. Don't presume what I'll believe, show me evidence of an arm growing back first, then perhaps we'll see -- but I'd need the proper controls. They dont want you to see this Big Tech does its best to limit what news you see. At the beginning I didn't find all that. This discussion is a summary of the high points of his 2 volume, over 1000 page books entitled, Miracles. So we understand it's not, it's not saying that somebody has lack of faith. (Warner Brothers even invited me onto the movie set to watch some of the filming and to meet the engaging actress.) The first step -- which the theists have not achieved -- is to just demonstrate that there is a real effect to be investigated. Did she go back to Congo after her PhD studies? Partly, because we are human and have many biases. What are some of the things that just sort of blew your mind that you researched, heard about, read about, came into first hand contact with as you explored this subject. Stay up-to-date with current issues, Christian teachings, entertainment news, videos & more. Converted to Pelican theme by Brian Blais. in social ethics from the University of Southern California, a Th.M. We can see the stories changing in the telling, being simplified, critical details dropped. These theists are in fact arguing for a lower level of evidence than we demand of the universities and pharmaceutical companies for their claims. Adding to that, he had some skepticism about some of the charlatans who have been exposed for making false claims about healings and the like. and Duane Miller (healed from irrevocably damaged vocal chords). placebo, memory contamination, fraud, spontaneous remission, etc) that will confound the effect so scientists have set up steps (e.g. And so when she was healed, the first thing she noticed was her feet were flat on the ground. Stanford and Johns Hopkins University. Check out https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/?s=control&category_name=&submit=Search to see the value of doing controlled studies in the field of medicine -- and where it goes wrong when people don't do this. This article wasoriginally published on Pure Flix Insider. After his conversion, Lee worked briefly as a pastor before moving into an apologetics ministry focusing on writing and video productions. But it's a wonderful volume. And this time the doctor said she won't be coming back to the hospital. On the one hand they use the excuse of "it's not replicable" when asked about how to test it, and on the other hand they want to also say that miracles are common -- more common than people realize. Thinking about the Snyder "miracle", I do wonder why in these cases there isn't much more extensive medical documentation? i think michael's right about obviously so many things are coincidence so we have to weigh a lot of factors to see um you know is there a theistic context to it that that tends to predominate in in the cases where we have these and so on you need a lot of cases to be able to to test that but uh the issue that he raises about replicability is is a real issue in the sense that you know when when we speak of of god creating everything and we speak of you know as christians speak of god's handiwork being all around us you know that's that's those are things that can be tested for replicability but we may disagree on the explanation you know levels of causation but miracles as one-offs so to speak they're not replicable and so they're not really testable by replicable means you can't um you know ensure that you're going to have one the next time around at the same time there's all sorts of things we have to deal with that aren't replicable certainly in historiography i have to deal with that so we want to know how somebody died we can't kill them again to to to ensure that and that's why i brought up how in different different disciplines we have to use the epistemic approach that's suitable for that discipline and so for miracles i think a case study approach is much better. Craig Keener: Yes. She never quotes her doctors about her condition, and provides no documentation whatsoever -- there is simply nothing to work with. Scott Rae: And then she made it safely to the U.S. and then you were reunited again. Some of them, some of the critiques were based on an interview with me that was published in Christianity Today, rather than the book itself. Is it possible she was misdiagnosed -- it wasn't MS, so looking for an MS recovery may be misdirected? I think people sitting back and watching kind of don't take into account that this is life-changing stuff that's happening to these people. But in this case, he had to have the medical documentation be he'd been on disability. It is suitable for those who love nice illustrations. He was 2200 in one eye and 2400 in the other and had already been through training for the blind. Elijah: they can verify that before and afterwards and i'm not sure it's rational to call those uh uh just coincidences like you're assuming some type of causality there um and i i think if you even allow for the possibility of something like the christian god to exist then um you've got to take seriously that it could be his action and then make an inference to the best explanation and where i think the voice of science comes in the best is in eliminating hypotheses not necessarily proving that's his voice and so you can go back and go well there's seven different hypotheses science can help us before eliminating some and then we've got two or three and we've got to critically think and go what do i think's most likely the case and i think that's the human situation and we make that call all the time we make it in court. When his wife prayed, having been told that he was gone, the heart monitor "sprang back to life" and then the doctors were able to revive him. Biography [ edit] Find your thing. These two cases are some of the best they have, and they are only modestly interesting, and have plausible mundane explanations. View the profiles of people named Barbara Snyder. You don't understand why it happens to this person and not to that person. Now of course, after six minutes with no oxygen you have irreparable brain damage starting in, but Terese had no brain damage. If you enjoyed our conversation today, give us a rating on your podcast app. It's still healing. What is more striking, especially for people who don't like Pentecostals or Charismatics, what's more striking is that the survey also in those 10 countries dealt with Christians who didn't consider themselves Pentecostal or Charismatic. But I think there's a good representative sample. She deteriorated over a period of many years, several operations, many hospitalizations," Strobel explained. A lot of accounts have been published from Asia. "This was an instantaneous healing of all of her symptoms and all of her illness to the point where 31 years later she's completely healthy," Strobel said. #religion You've done tremendous work on it that is a huge benefit to the Kingdom, not only with your technical biblical scholarship, but with this incredible stuff you've done on miracles. In particular, it includes an interview with Barbara Snyder, who was instantaneously healed from advanced multiple sclerosis, as also attested by her two physicians. But I heard this one from somebody who worked with Craig Evans, followed up with Barbara Snyder and her doctors and passed this onto Lee Strobel, who followed up on this too. James: yes so think about what Shermer has done. By signing up to the Blaze News newsletter you agree to receive electronic communications from Blaze Media that may sometimes include advertisements or sponsored content. A question also came out that if the scientific standard seems too high for these theists, in which discipline would the standard not be too high? We are interested in the truth and are aware of many other factors (e.g. He has served in a variety of teaching and leadership roles, including a term as president of the Evangelical Theological Society in 2015. You should watch Pinecreek's reaction here -- it pretty much sums it up. Sean McDowell, Timothy Pickavance, Scott RaeFebruary 27, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 16, 2023, Sean McDowell, Scott RaeFebruary 09, 2023. What problems are you interested in? We really appreciate your taking the time to come be on the podcast with us. Easily testable, and I'd be surprised if this is a real effect once you get past the selection bias and sociological effects, and have good controls including separating number of miracle reports from actual anomalous medical events. Synder's miraculous healing, which unfolded more than 30 years ago, was apparently so shocking that even her doctors have written about her seemingly impossible medical turn-around. Once you admit that getting a pool table after prayer is a miracle, then you've admitted that your standards of evidence are outrageously poor. This is clearly a rare medical case -- but with 7 billion people you'd expect some of these often just by the law of large numbers. Keener: There's confirmation bias I think that can happen either way. Now, I know you can read headlines so you know this was a study of proximal intercessory prayer, but the point is even if you assess the details of the study divorced from knowledge of what the intervention is, it should be obvious that this study tells us nothing. The podcast with us eventually I found some of this Society in 2015 's Powerful Lessons after Facing.! At the beginning I did n't find all that he ended up not playing sports with the other kids these. 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